Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

A place to discuss the various professions in EiF.
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MasterZeuth
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Joined: Wed May 03, 2017 10:33 pm

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by MasterZeuth » Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:38 pm

A follow up thoughts to the above post. I think these changes risk making some classes a bit too weak against certain NPC's, and some naturally better against them. This heads in the direction of the damage type issue, where some classes are just too handicapped against certain content. I do like the idea of classes being weak to certain things, but I feel like that only comes out as a strong positive in PVP encounters. This might need a significant PVE rebalance pass as well. Without that, this seems to be a different type of content-gating along the lines of damage types.

Depending on how heavy handed you intend to be, this might not be that big of a deal. This is certainly better than some classes having tons of state defense, and some having almost none, that's for sure.

Anishor
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:14 am

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by Anishor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:02 am

QRRegicide wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm
TKM is no longer worth it without the bonus toughness unless you give it access to multiple damage types and at the same time this change is implemented.
We've already stated we're rebalancing mob's resists and adding more weapons in the client patch. That being said I believe you're making quite a leap connecting the toughness and weapon selection to viability since all the other melee professions are pretty much in the same boat. With maybe access to one weapon that provides additional damage type but in PVP that point is moot, and in PvE it will be OBE once the MoB re-balance goes and the client patch drops.
QRRegicide wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm
By loading up state based defenses in singles to the combat professions you'll be removing the ability to become tanky by using your points throughout multiple professions for benefit. We need more information. Where are these +75, +50 and +25 values going to lie? What boxes, will it be homogenized, what's the maximum you want players to be able to achieve for stat mods from JUST profession boxes. What value are you placing on tapes, do you intend to make them more or less valuable?
Nothing is finalized yet but - They'll be in the defensive line tree, novice box, and master box. For Primary: Novice: 10, Defense Line 1-4: 10, Master Box: 15. Secondary: Novice: 0, Defense Line 2,4: 20, Master: 10. Tertiary: Novice: 0, Defensive Line 1,3: 10, Master: 5. Tapes will still be 25 max, but we have something in store for the armor tapes.
QRRegicide wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm
Please god get rid of Posture Change: Up, it's total junk. Riflemen already have a hard time being themselves, don't change the combat for everyone else and then continue to kneecap Rifleman.
I'll switch it to tertiary and buff cover's defenses.
QRRegicide wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm
I believe these changes are intended to make every profession good at SOMETHING, but unfortunately I believe it is going to shoehorn players who want any combat at all into maxing two entire combat professions (using all their points) and still having pretty serious wholes in their state-based defenses.

There isn't a way that I can read these changes in a positive light and I truly hope that you do a number of days of testing greater than or equal to life of the server to this point because I am worried that when these changes get implemented, if they're only tested by a handful of people, you're going to kill your server.

These don't feel like these changes are designed to allow me to play whatever combat profession I want and tailor it to my playstyle, these changes will seem to force me to pick a combat profession that meets my playstyle, and I was under the impression that was the exact opposite of what this server was trying to achieve.
Actually the idea was to let you pick your playstyle for your /profession/. IE a Smuggler with rifles, a bounty hunter with melee. Skills Sets were very much designed with roles and intent. For example, rifles were always meant to be snipers and best at long range with slow firing high damage. Yes I am designing to have holes in the state defense, this increases counter play. No one thing should best in all situations. In its current state, this method of defense stacking removes a large tactical portion of the game.

QRRegicide wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm
What do you want players to be able to do, how strong do you want me to become (and with how much work)? That is the biggest question that I have yet to get an answer to. Where do you want player strength to be and how much do you want it to vary. And which would you like it to vary with most, time, effort or build?
I want players to feel strong but I still want players to have fear against some of the stronger mobs, especially in smaller groups or solo. I want to players to be able to push themselves and have challenge. Understanding that mob X is more likely to apply a state that you may not be very good at and that means you have compensate some how, instead of building the uber-tank TKM or fencer/pistoller and having low chance for any states to be applied.

Anishor
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:14 am

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by Anishor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:04 am

MasterZeuth wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:38 pm
A follow up thoughts to the above post. I think these changes risk making some classes a bit too weak against certain NPC's, and some naturally better against them. This heads in the direction of the damage type issue, where some classes are just too handicapped against certain content. I do like the idea of classes being weak to certain things, but I feel like that only comes out as a strong positive in PVP encounters. This might need a significant PVE rebalance pass as well. Without that, this seems to be a different type of content-gating along the lines of damage types.

Depending on how heavy handed you intend to be, this might not be that big of a deal. This is certainly better than some classes having tons of state defense, and some having almost none, that's for sure.
MoB Resists Balance Pass will be implemented before the state defense changes.

Anishor
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:14 am

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by Anishor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:18 am

MasterZeuth wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:43 pm
These changes seem pretty okay. I like this so far. How do the numbers look in terms of total damage mitigation when you look at TKA vs Fencer for example? IE: What's the real difference between Med/Med/High-Toughness and High/High/Medium-Toughness?
Roughly this -

TKM - 30( because it cannot hit cap on it's secondary stat. But will be @ 100.)
Pikeman - 27
Fencer - 22
Swordsmen - 17 ( who will also be getting Intimidate 2 )

QRRegicide
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by QRRegicide » Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:24 pm

QRRegicide wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 8:55 pm
What do you want players to be able to do, how strong do you want me to become (and with how much work)? That is the biggest question that I have yet to get an answer to. Where do you want player strength to be and how much do you want it to vary. And which would you like it to vary with most, time, effort or build?
Anishor quote that got gibbed somehow:
I want players to feel strong but I still want players to have fear against some of the stronger mobs, especially in smaller groups or solo. I want to players to be able to push themselves and have challenge. Understanding that mob X is more likely to apply a state that you may not be very good at and that means you have compensate some how, instead of building the uber-tank TKM or fencer/pistoller and having low chance for any states to be applied.
[/quote]

This is an unsatisfactory answer. What does "strong" mean to you, because to me it means the ability to solo everything except boss content (Axkva Min, Corvette, DWB, Acklay) with the proper template and consumables. Concrete examples please. What do you want a player who spends all 250 of their points with the intent of fighting things to be able to do.

How am I going to be a tank in PvE if I can't properly create a web of state defenses? I understand your wanton for PvP balance, but the reason for gibbing PvE defense can't be PvP counterplay.

How much testing have you personally done with the full "stack" build and each of the combat professions? I'm talking Pistols xx4x, Carbines xx2x and cycling out TKM/MPikes/MSwords/MFencer/MRifle/MPistol/MCarbines?

How do you want PvE to even work? Do you intend on forcing group dynamics? Will you force players hands and make them do Tank/Heals/Fill DPS for everything you intend of making too difficult to solo, if this is the case why would I be able to pick anything other than TKM (with these changes) and tank, are the three other melee professions going to be exclusively for DPS as they gain reduced toughness and bonus damage? What about ranged tanks, do you intend for these state based defense changes to allow for a pistoleer or carbineer to be the main tank on something like Axkva?

I understand that you want everything to have a style, but you gotta tell me what styles you're aiming for on the other end and more than just, we want these skills to deal more and take more and we want these skills do deal less and take less. What is your intention when you force a player to choose between playing Pistoleer or Carbineer? Do you want that their entire decision should be based on the meta, attack damage size, speed, toughness, which states they don't like being affected with, whether or not I just want to shoot a tiny gun or a medium gun?

What i want is to know what your end game goal for each combat profession is in player versus environment situations with these changes. What skills don't do now that you want them do, what do skills do now that you don't want them to?

A quick side note as I didn't mention it before, I have no idea why or where the Center of Being changes come from, illuminate please. (Also it feels practically irrelevant in game)

Anishor
Posts: 64
Joined: Fri Jun 05, 2015 10:14 am

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by Anishor » Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:05 pm

A player using tactics and consumables should be able handle most non-boss content but it won't be easy and you might die periodically. There will be exceptions depending your build and the states the mob tries to apply. if you ultra min max, prep for the mob extensively, have the gear, consumables, and buffs then you should have a solid chance of success but you shouldn't be able to walk up and win in a mindless manner. I'm not going to be more specific than that yet.

PvP (group pvp > dueling ) and Group PVE will always have a higher focus than solo pve.

CoB increases your M/R Defenses by your efficacy amount and is not affected by the cap. The intent with CoB, berserk or neither apply will allow for tanking/dps/balanced modes for melee. I would love to find a way to allow for cover to do the same for ranged but it is honestly going to be too much work for now, so ranged tanking if any will be via avoidance and kiting.

This server aims to be a virtual world, where player driven content is the end game, we do have some group-PVE content planned but we don't plan on making that a focus. The economy, RP, and PVP. Also I want to state that the PVP will eventually be more than just fighting, there will be other forms of player versus player in terms of logistics and politics if we can pull of our goals.

Here is the basic idea for each of the combat skill sets:

Medic - Healer
CH - Pets

Rifles - Sniper, Long Range, High Burst, slow refire.
Carbines - Assault Specialist. Medium Range, Medium burst and medium refire. Good at applying states.
Pistols - Close Range and Running. Short Range, low burst and high refire. Has wide arrange of tools and damage types.

Swordsmen - Hard hitting slower swings, gets intimidate 2.
Fencer - Fastest Hitting swings with less damage per hit
Pikes - Medium Damage per swing and medium swing speed. More range than the others
TKA - Medium Damage per swing and medium 'swing' speed. Gets the combo attacks allowing for the applying of multiple states.

The idea is that each could tank if need be with CoB and right preparation. TKM and Pikeman will be the best tanks in a traditional sense, with higher damage mitigation. However Swordsmen will have access to intimidate 2, and fencer is a great at avoidance. They should all be pretty close after these changes given comparison of mobs that they're equally strong or weak too.

The same thing for damage but in reverse order. Swordsmen should be the highest, followed by fencer and then pikeman and tkm. However they should be close enough together that you're not gimping yourself or your group for pvp or pve if you decide to be damage dealing.

QRRegicide
Posts: 9
Joined: Thu May 04, 2017 1:11 pm

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by QRRegicide » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:07 pm

Great, I don't think you really have any idea what you're doing and I hope it works out.

Seedyjee
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat May 06, 2017 3:27 pm

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by Seedyjee » Fri Jun 30, 2017 10:49 pm

Anishor wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 5:05 pm

Rifles - Sniper, Long Range, High Burst, slow refire.
Carbines - Assault Specialist. Medium Range, Medium burst and medium refire. Good at applying states.
Pistols - Close Range and Running. Short Range, low burst and high refire. Has wide arrange of tools and damage types.

Swordsmen - Hard hitting slower swings, gets intimidate 2.
Fencer - Fastest Hitting swings with less damage per hit
Pikes - Medium Damage per swing and medium swing speed. More range than the others
TKA - Medium Damage per swing and medium 'swing' speed. Gets the combo attacks allowing for the applying of multiple states.
is this going to be accomplished by modifying the weapons damage/delays on the abilities or by adjusting their speed/damage during crafting?
Right now carbines/rifles/pistols are kind of setup like this from the weapon crafting stats..but melee are all the same at the moment.

Bean
Posts: 74
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 11:14 pm

Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by Bean » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:36 pm

I have a couple questions.

Right now, if you hit an enemy with multiple posture down effects, it will force them to stand. Will this remain true, and an intentional strategy for forcing riflemen out of cover?

Also, what effects will professions like bounty hunter, ranger, and commando have on defensive stats?

Edit: Additionally, right now, most commando weapons use block as their defensive state. Is this going to carry forward, or can we expect changes?
Kanten Kania (Wiley Old Man)
Darrando Rivet (Has Rancor, Will Travel)
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MasterZeuth
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Re: Defensive Stats Redistribution and Balancing Plans

Post by MasterZeuth » Fri Jun 30, 2017 11:56 pm

Anishor wrote:
Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:04 am
MasterZeuth wrote:
Thu Jun 29, 2017 9:38 pm
A follow up thoughts to the above post. I think these changes risk making some classes a bit too weak against certain NPC's, and some naturally better against them. This heads in the direction of the damage type issue, where some classes are just too handicapped against certain content. I do like the idea of classes being weak to certain things, but I feel like that only comes out as a strong positive in PVP encounters. This might need a significant PVE rebalance pass as well. Without that, this seems to be a different type of content-gating along the lines of damage types.

Depending on how heavy handed you intend to be, this might not be that big of a deal. This is certainly better than some classes having tons of state defense, and some having almost none, that's for sure.
MoB Resists Balance Pass will be implemented before the state defense changes.
WHO PUT THAT THERE
Shiiiiiiit

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